I’d post some results but Justin really has the corner on that market. Plus being disconnected for the last 20 hours, I have no clue what is going on.
Bunk with the Beasts at the Zoo last night. Sort of like summer camp but at the zoo and with it cold and with Cub Scouts. JZ and I hung out at the zoo this AM after things wrapped up. So I got a lot of shots like this:
Late in the afternoon – on the mill again. I have not been on the mill this weekend because of the weather (which is sort of nice actually) but rather the necessity to be at home during the run. Again, I fell into the trap of the mill … which is to play. Given no scenery, or a movie to watch, inevitably I play with the pace to pass the time. 1.5 percent grade (which seems right for me at this point). Went a mile (8), and then did 20 minutes on, off – but the ons were not zippy … more like just a slight push. This was okay – I was just playing and not looking to kill it … just mix it up a bit. I ignored HR through the run, but found that what I thought was a “slight push” versus “killing it”in the workout was indeed reflected in the HR data. The upper dashed line is 160, the lower is 150.
This week … I was sort of all over with training again this week. Had the cold, it was cold, busy week at work and with the family … but really, it is because I have not landed on what I am going to do next – and I am still fine with that. Except when I am not fine. Then I am slightly put out by it. In other words, this is not training. It is exercising – and I enjoy that , but it is not training because it is sort of without an object … other than being somewhat ready when that epiphany shows up. I went from thinking that I’d be gearing up for USATF XC this week to thinking a lot about Pikes to thinking I need a break from the mountains for a while –as in maybe a year (this last one came as I moved very slowly down off Green earlier this week). Whatever.
10 hours, 32 minutes (632 minutes) this week for 74 miles. October is now 18 hours and 2 minutes, 122 miles. 2818 miles on the year, 25079 minutes.
Sunday, October 11, 2009
Sunday 101109
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Am I a mountain energy vampire? How can we run together if you avoid the mountains and I avoid the front range? Damn short shorts lover :)
ReplyDeleteKomodo Dragons are Amazing animals, and really quite scary. Poisonous bite, can run 30+ mph, swim, climb trees and are aggressive carnivores. Scary.
So Tim ... it was just a realization that my best mountain running came off the heals of solid (not my best) road running.
ReplyDeleteI love the call of the mountains. I can't skip them all together. But I feel that when I focus on them for the purposes of focusing on them - I am screwed. There is some goofy zen in that. It is sort of wanting the girl too much.
We spent the most time in the Pachyderm (sp?) house. Rhino (screw the term hung like a horse - try hung like a rhino), elephant, and hippo. The elephant taking a piss ... JZ cracks up and yells, "that is like a waterfall."
Ah, bodily function humor never fails.
And apparently, according the docent, elephants are the only animals in nature that cannot jump. I guessed turtle and was told I was wrong (which seems like a correct assessment on retrospect).
No mountains? I am just getting started in the mountains. Have been looking forward to heading out one of these days for Green, SoBo Peak, etc. We should do something before it is too late and you end up racing track or something...
ReplyDeleteYou should rig something with a laptop to watch on the mill. I used to put an old laptop on a music stand while working out on the Elliptical. Have since hacked together a stand that I bolted to the Elliptical. Better for my wife as she is the one who uses the thing. May not work for a mill given your paces, but may be worth a try. Better to watch a movie than to stare at a closed garage or your driveway...
Hung like a rhino, HA! My buddy used to say he was hung like a sea horse. And the Argentine Blue bill duck actually has the longest schlong to body length ratio in the animal world (it's true). It can be as long as it's entire body.
ReplyDeleteI really think in order to be good at anything you have to have a true love for it. Run the mountains because you love the mountains, not because you want to be good at running mountains. Love them first and the ability will follow. Your Zen thing, I think, is 100% correct.
I just realized this is the oddest post I've ever written.
"Plus being disconnected for the last 20 hours, I have no clue what is going on."
ReplyDeletewow- you're worse than i am!
anyhow. we're glad to have you back on the internets.
after reading your post- i'm interested to see what you end up focusing on in 2010!
I dunno man, hung like an elephant. The crap is like a firehose.
ReplyDeleteI think elephants are also the only animal with 4 knees. (Apparently everybody else's are elbows technically).
I used to know a guy who'd say ...
ReplyDelete"all you guys talking about your big junk. My junk is small, but at least it is thin." Used to crack me up to no end.
Chris - I have hooked up the laptop to watch stuff while I was on the mill. I can't type though.
I ain't going to leave mountains altogether ... I was just toying with the thought that while I have focused on them, I have not gotten the results I had when I was not focused on them. Kind of like wanting to go out with that girl really bad - doesn't work. But suddenly you don't care - and the tide comes in. Now, I just need to know that I can't care while caring while not caring. Or sumthin like dat.
But I will still get out and play.
Beth ... it is good for me to be disconnected. I might try to disconnect altogether for a few weeks in December ... just to prove I can.
I think your ideas about mountain running have some validity.
ReplyDeleteAfter that xterra worlds 21k in Hawaii last year, at the after party my wife and i found a seat at a table with one Ben Bruce (he was waiting for his buddy Max King). So Ben and I talked a little about the whole trail affair, etc. (he finished 2nd that day to King). As I was looking forward to 2009, I just kinda picked his brain on what he thought/his approach etc.
He definitely thought running more flatter stuff in general (he didn't say that exactly) but to your point not running in mountains all the time, nor on hills all the time in order to do well there. In fact, i remember him talking about just integrating some moderate grades since one can probably maintain some speed, and still get that benefit. He may have nodded for my sake when I suggested running some steeper stuff to simulate some of these mountainous races, but in general he was pretty much pitching the train for a road 1/2 marry (whatever distance applies) and mix-in some moderate climbing.
I think JMock had a similar approach leading-up to Pikes. At the tail end he seemed to "run for the hills." From what I recall, he did fairly well ;-)
On running hills in training: I am a believer.
ReplyDeleteI've run pretty much nothing but steep hills this year, close to 3,000 miles of them, mainly in the 9-10 m/m zone. Prior to this year, I ran mainly on the flats with all kinds of tempo stuff thrown in. I have been fitter, faster and stronger this year than any other in my (relatively short) running life.
Not that this proves anything, because I have also run more miles this year than any other in my life, and came in injury free and on the back of a solid half year of base building. Or maybe I am still working through the steep section of the fitness bell curve; I dunno.
Too many variables to come to any solid conclusions, but in my mind the improvements are directly related to miles and hills - day in, day out.
Other mountain runners will tell you differently, of course, so I guess it's important to find what you respond to best. Matt Carpenter likes hills and lots of 'em, Simon Gutierrez trains like a 10k runner. Two great mountain runners with two entirely different approaches to training.
Nick - agree.
ReplyDeleteDifferent strokes, different folks.
Carpenter does mix in flat and fast, and Simon does do hills.
I am not saying I'd abandon hills in training altogehter. I like being out there too much. I am a bit ashamed that I lived here for 10 years before getting up Green. I knew none of the trails. I love that I know them (here) now that I can talk like a tour guide (via the fine schooling of Jeff V).
Not sure how to convey it but it seems like I have gotten stale on them a bit with my performance. This sort of ties to a bigger topic of training ... which is that I think one needs to be consistently considering how to take their training in a different (which is sometimes the same) direction. Could be more hills, or could be more miles or could be more fast and flat stuff. There is something to be said about consistency, and doing what works ... but on balance with mixing in stuff that puts you OFF balance - to get better.
... mix THAT in with that I seem to bite when I really try to do something and seem to do okay when I care less about it ... well, you get the picture.
I dunno ... maybe because I can't land on what to do, I DON't land on what to do and just do whatever and all of it and none of it ...
Seems to me like you're gonna have a huge endurance base going into next year: 70+ mile weeks with no particular training goal (other than an obscure mileage number on the year).
ReplyDeleteAll roads seem to be pointing towards Harrison and sixth - just sayin' ;-)
Nick ... kind of spins me up into another topic that we sort of chatted on a bit while in the Springs this summer ...
ReplyDeleteI find it hard to fathom that guys train for an ultra on 50-70 miles a week. By analogy that would be training for a marathon on 13-15 miles a week. I'm just saying.
Leadville is 10 months away. 70 mpw right about now through the winter would be a great way to lay a base.
ReplyDeleteUltimately you have to commit to big mileage for a month or two before the race - I think - but it helps if you're building from something close to what you ultimately want to hit mileage-wise.
Plenty of people run 100s on 50-70 mpw, but I would guess that a lot - not all - pay the price through the second half of their race.
The 13 mpw for a marathon analogy isn't really correct in that 50 miles and above are totally different from 50K and below. Specifically, 50M and above are run at sub-maximal effort where pure fitness isn't the only limiting factor. When going at a sub-maximal effort the limiting factor is generally fueling and keeping salt/hydration in balance. Cardiac drift means that what was easy pace at 10 miles will be slightly harder at 80 miles, hence a moderate slow-down but really as long as you are staying fueled you should be ok on a smart 50 miles of training per week, with a higher week here and there. That being said, you obviously want your "easy" pace to be as fast as possible but you don't have to run over 50 miles a week to dramatically improve your easy pace as long as you are mixing in the right percentages of threshold running in training.
ReplyDeleteAnother poing to consider is 50 miles a week spread over 7 days of training is way different than 50 miles a week in 4 days of running, with a healthy amount of cross training mixed in as well.
Finally, how many miles a week of walking? Most people walk in ultras, and the theory of specificity dictates that you should therefore be practising walking in training as well. Just because you can run 6:00 pace for 3 or 4 hours doesn't mean you can run 8:00 pace mixed with walking for 17 hours, unless you have prepared to do so.
- PaulD
Good stuff Paul. I wonder however if a person training on 50 a week is likely to get to that point where they are truly having to deal with fuel / electrolyte issues like they would in an ultra.
ReplyDeleteA more lengthy post on this ...http://www.ultrunr.com/train100.html
ReplyDeletePaul, I remember reading somewhere that you won Leadville once on not much more than 50mpw, so obviously it is doable, but I am guessing that 1. your body had been through high-mileage training cycles prior to that particular race, and 2. most runners would pay dearly with such low mileage if they were preparing for their first 100 miler, especially if they were looking to push themselves to a fast time - whatever that might be for them.
ReplyDeleteTo your point that you need specificity in training, it seems logical that that would extend to running through fatigue, which can't really be achieved on 50 miles per week - maybe on a second long run b2b - but that's not quite the same as the physical stress felt, and adapted to, after a stretch of three to four big, big mileage weeks.
Be interested to hear your thoughts on training through fatigue - seemed to work for me, but maybe not the smartest way to train.
Hi Nick and GZ - some followup comments just sort of in random order....
ReplyDeleteBack to the training volume analogy, do world class marathoners train 4 times as much as world class 10K runners?
Yes I have been right around 45 - 55 miles a week for the last decade. My only 2 years ever of running more than 2800 miles was 1998 and 99. During my various 100 build-ups though I would have a few weeks in the 70s (like the current week for example because my 100 is on Oct 31). I don't do training runs longer than 3 hrs (flat) or 4 hrs (mountainous) but rather save the longer stuff for races. I do however run a lot of back to back 2 or 2.5 hr runs which I feel are more effective.
As far as not going long enough to actually need a lot of fuel/salt/water, that would be the case even for a runner doing 100 miles a week (which afterall is only 2 hrs a day). The only chance you are going to have to really figure out that stuff is in a 50M or above race. You want to get in the habit of eating/drinking on a schedule during your training runs, but it is really going to take a much longer day than most of us do in training to test it all out.
Which brings me to really the whole point of this - the mental aspect of ultras. First you have to be confident in your own plan (training and race day) and not bounce back and forth every few weeks when you see/hear about some other runner doing x, y, or z. I call it the flavor of the month syndrome. There are basically runners doing very well on every imaginable training routine but you have to figure out what works best with your life and your personality, and then stick with it long enough for it to start working. I just don't want to spend more than 7 or 8 hours a week running to be honest, and while this isn't the only way to go, I just hate to see promising younger runners shy away from ultras because they think they would require a ton of miles/time.
Finally, the other mental part is on race day. More so than other distances ultras are about problem-solving which I find fascinating. No matter what shape you are in, you are liable to have issues and the person that is mentally able to figure out what is going on and what needs to be done to fix it is the one who will win.
And of course genetics plays a part. I'm fully aware (and awed) by how hard many runners train yet they are never going to beat me. I know that isn't fair, just like there are many who are always going to be better than me as well. A well-known, good ultra runner (AJW) right now is trying to break 5:00 for the mile for the first time as if that is some big accomplishment. I did that for the first time when I was 12 or 13 and could still do it anytime of day, no matter how far I'd already run that day! Again life isn't fair but running is all about maximizing your own potential and here again ultras are great for that. Hardly anyone "races" an ultra but rather is just trying to get to the finish line as quick as they personally can, regardless of what everyone else is doing. I hope you do give one a shot next season.
- PaulD
I think you hit on a good point there Paul: confidence in your training. If you're doing 50 mpw but constantly questioning if it's enough, then likely you'll be unprepared mentally on race day.
ReplyDeleteI think the heavy mileage in training is as much about being mentally prepared as it is about being physically ready. Probably easier to train with confidence for one of these things on lower mileage if you've already gotten the job done a couple of times on higher miles.
I guess I enjoy being out in training for long periods of time, when possible, so the higher mileage isn't so much of a chore
On AJW - my impression was that he has (surely) been under five minutes for the mile, just not in a while. Trying to relive the glory days - or something like that.
That 5:00 mile stuff, upon actually reading my own post, came across more snarky than I intended. I really just meant that it is more important what you do with whatever talent you have. When/if AJW breaks 5:00 (and it would be the first time ever for him), it will be a great accomplishment for him just because it would represent a first. For me, I'd have to set a totally different goal to have the same meaning. The other take-away is that going from the mile to a 100, you can't always draw a direct correlation in finishing times.
ReplyDeletePaul, Nick and GZ,
ReplyDeleteThis is a great thread and I concur on all of Paul's points. I am not a naturally gifted runner (58 vo2max, overweight until I discovered running, arthritic hips, etc...) However, I think I have the mental side of 100 milers figured out. The 5 min mile is a totally different story and a fun challenge for me this month. I ran a 5:12 when I was 24. Now, I am training to run 4:59. I may fail. And, I may fail multiple times. But, I have to believe that will make me stronger.
And, one more thing on the mental side (and this is not to take a jab at Paul but to give you an idea of this whole mental thing) in WS in 2005 (the year I finished 2nd) I arrived at Michigan Bluff and my crew gave me a "cheat sheet." Basically, it was a rundown of the guys in front of me with a bit of info on what they did at Michigan Bluff when they came through the Aid Station. A few places ahead of me was Paul's name and it said "Stayed in Aid Station 10 minutes, changed his shoes." At that point I knew I had a chance to catch him even though I knew he was much faster than me. I caught him on the way down to the river.
And Paul, get that record at Javelina!
AJW
Thoughts by Will Gadd on "mental fitness"
ReplyDeleteGood link Homie.
ReplyDeleteAll this hits on a theme for me: in training for "typical" events, you can get pretty close to seeing and understanding the mental toughness you will need to deal with physical breakdowns in that event.
Not so much in the 100. You don't know what is going to happen until you get there. That, I guess is both the beauty of doing it - and the very stuff that is pretty scary about it.
I am a bit stuck on committing to a 100 for a variety of reasons - but this is amongst them. I am left wondering if I can train properly to do the event in the way I want to do it. The answer I don't seem to like is I won't know until I get there in the race.