Wednesday, July 20, 2011
Altitude training for altitude racing
Scott E recently said: With regard to specifically training for Pikes, low-altitude laps on something like Bear are not nearly as good as high-altitude climbs. There is NO substitute for training at altitude for a race that is virtually always decided by those who have prepped correctly for racing hard at altitude. Those last six miles on Pikes will destroy even the most fit runner who has not bothered to properly train. Wanna do well at Pikes? Put in gobs of steep stuff, months of pretty heavy mileage, sharpen with appropriate intervals, and LOTS of altitude for both the long runs and the hard runs.
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All you need is a huge trust fund so you can quit your job, a nearby 14K peak with an 8,000-foot base to summit rise with a runnable trail to the top and an extra five hours in the day. Then, you can really prepare.
ReplyDeleteInteresting point Jim. The two guys that have been the most successful on the mountain over the last two decades have not had huge trust funds, but I think were both independent computer consultants who spent a lot of time on the mountain - probably to the cost of their work, but also probably comfortable in living a bit more thriftly. Scott (whose quote I extended on above) was know to take a full month of living at Barr Camp to prepare.
ReplyDeleteFigured you weren't going to drop the job or the mortgage, so I went with the trust fund.
ReplyDeleteI got your request for a blog post on high altitude training on my other blog... and I'll get to that.
ReplyDeleteI feel that Scott E's comment has to be taken within context though. "decided by those who have prepped correctly for racing hard at altitude" is far from realistic. Yes, spending 4 weeks at HA (high altitude)is "correct"... but is it realistic?
And popping up to run Pikes every other weekend will not have a physiological benefit outside of simply knowing how your body will react to altitude on race day... there is nearly zero training benefit. Knowing the course is useful though. But a ~6 hour exposure to high altitude will not even register in terms of RBC production. Focus more on increasing V02 max and also lactate threshold which are both critical at HA.
I ran at altitude the times I trained for Pikes about 1-2 x week. Basically it was one big run and if I could manage, another smaller run. Maybe it's not the best way to do it, but it seemed to work for me. Then again, I was born in Boulder, so maybe that had something to do with it too. The funny thing is that there were a few guys running with me at the start of the race who came up from sea level, who had never run at altitude. I'm pretty sure they dropped off the pace long before we got above tree line. Heh.
ReplyDeleteIn the past I have been to 14k 30+ times in the months leading up to race day, yet still get passed above tree line of all places by people from sea level, or roadies who just run flat miles. Lot's of other factors at play for sure, but you would have to think that a reasonable amount of acclimitization would be beneficial (all things being equal).
ReplyDeleteThere has been tons of research on how the body reacts best to altitude. Live high/ train low is #1. Live high/ train high is #2 I think. Live low/ train infrequently high isn't one that works. My guess is that popping up to run at high altitude allows the athlete to experience the negatives of high altitude which then allows them to deal with it more effectively in the race, it's a more familiar feeling then. It's probably 99% mental which in my opinion is worth a TON. Sometimes it's worth more than fitness. The Central Governor is a thought process so if you can cause it to come in to play on a one time run up Pikes then you effectively learn a little bit in over riding it and how to deal with it. Scott and Matt I suspect are both mental monsters at altitude.
ReplyDeleteBut from a pure physiological aspect 1 X week on Pikes won't register in terms of actual acclimation. You would probably get more RBC stimulation out of going for a run and over dressing on a hot day. The oxygen deprivation is similar to what you would feel at 14k altitude due to the body's need for cooling it's core temps. Central Governor will also come in to play.
And Jeff is citing an example of genetics and maybe also training specificity. A sea level runner is going to have the ability to stimulate their V02 max much more effectively than a high altitude runner (think suppressed muscle activation) and at 14k V02 max comes in to play. IMO the training for a high altitude event like Pikes should include (weekly) 5-6 hill repeats of 2:00-3:00 in length at a near maximum effort. You want severe oxygen debt and also high stroke volume. You can also stuff a sock in your mouth on hard runs...
I agree with what is being said here.
ReplyDeleteI think that Scott obviously got a bunch of benefit in the years he stayed at Barr Camp for extended periods. Living at 10k feet will do that of course.
I made the statement at one point that the altitude thing was all in one's head and really I meant that was probably more about the central governor.
I heard an interview with Noakes about the C.G. where he described the following phenomena as an indicator of its existence. A person goes and runs their first 5k one weekend, and they run 30 minutes. The next weekend they come back and run under the same conditions 25 minutes.
Did they really improve 5 minutes from a physiological perspective? Noakes argues that the C.G. learned between the first and the second effort that you are not going to kill yourself and hence allows you to run that second effort faster.
It could be argued that a similar benefit is achieved with these runs at altitude. One gains a familiarity with it so that the brain is convinced that you won't die, and so you can perform a bit better next time there with little physiological change. Probably more importantly, and agreeing with you Tim, is the benefit gained in terms of confidence, and knowledge of how to level a particular effort under those circumstances.
This is not to say there is no physiological benefit gained by being at altitude - I just don't think there is a significant amount gained from a short stint up there.
For me, that said, I believe I might be in a bit of a hole in terms of altitude because I have spent a significant greater amount of time at sea level than I have in past years. And I do usually get to spend a good number of nights sleeping at 10k feet - and I have not done that.
Good conversation all - I look forward to more input.
Before I did the PPM a few years ago (right when I first got into marathons...PPM was my second marathon ever, lol), I looked up to see what folks from South Carolina had done before.
ReplyDeleteShock and Awe: http://www.skyrunner.com/ppresults/1991ppm_m.htm
Look at the #5 finisher in 1991 in 4h5m.
I agree with the comments above that is more important WHAT you do then necessarily WHERE you do it.
Another anecdotal, but Ryan Hafer claimed to have not run one mile at altitude in prep for his 2005 win.
ReplyDeleteGood stuff.
ReplyDeleteI think that said, there are probably more cases where a sea level guy has toed the race line and had a bad day then folks that have trained on the hill. It seems to me that nearly every year some super fast guy at sea level shows up only to not make it through the Ws.
That could be altitude, but arguably it is probably more the lack of specificity of training on grade.
End of the day, it might be more about some genetic thing more than anything else. We all have a "ceiling" at some point. Maybe that is 10k for some, 14k for others, 18k for others ...
Kind of hard to argue with Scott and Matt though who both push the training there, and have had the results to prove it.
Trust fund, as in: I trust I will never have one.
ReplyDeleteSo, this pretty much means to be able to run fast, you actually have to be able to run fast? Damn.
A bit off-topic, but the elevation stuff reminds me of a funny page by Steve Garufi.
"Look with envy at those above you; Look with disdain at those below you. Living at a high altitude is where it's at!"
That is a great page. My in laws living in Fairplay would top the list. Even over those Pb folks.
ReplyDeleteJust stumbled across this page... probably because I saw GZ at this past weekend's festivities. Great race, Mr. Zack!
ReplyDeleteNo trust fund for me, for sure. I lived, and still live, frugally. I chose to live at Barr Camp because I knew how important it was to mentally, as well as physically, prepare for the Ascent. And though it's been touched upon, I have to say that the "Live High, Train Low" approach and other methods mentioned are all geared towards research of physiological benefits for low-altitude races, NOT Pikes. It's my firm belief that if you're going to race to 14K, you'd better get your body prepared for the 10-ish miles of significant uphill, and your brain prepared for maxing out virtually the whole way. As the weeks progressed, my training splits from Barr to the summit would ALWAYS improve; to the point where I could get those six miles in comfortably at or below 60 minutes. I memorized the trail, I ran the race over and over in my head, and I spent a ton of time recovering between training sessions, which is easy to do at Barr Camp. If I needed an easier day, I'd run on the Elk Park trail (heaven!), and there's a bunch of places for flat striders up there. My intervals were anywhere from 4 minutes to 13 minutes, mostly above Barr but sometimes lower down. I KNEW on race day that I was effectively running "underwater" until Barr Camp, whichI considered to be my "sea level." I always raced on feel, and never bothered to glance at splits. I usually went out pretty fast and soloed the whole race, but my most memorable race was when Matt and Mark Stickley pulled away from me (and I was suffering from a horrible side-stitch) and got out of sight before halfway up. Just past the Bottomless Pit sign, I encountered Stickley walking -- he was blown. It took me until a mile to go to bridge back up to Matt, but then the adrenaline took over and I put in close to two minutes on him in that last mile. Yes, I got tested at the OTC and only Matt (at that time anyway) had a higher VO2 than me (I think I was 92 or 93?), so I understand that I have the right set of lungs and capillaries, but the mental strength and the confidence gained from beating people like Matt were invaluable.